Netatmo Smart Radiator Valves

whnagel
Posts: 83
Joined: 24 Nov 2014, 14:00

Re: Netatmo Smart Radiator Valves

Post by whnagel » 19 Oct 2017, 08:15

Harald,
Before you raised plan Temperature to 21.5 for the thermostat. ......
Did you check if the radiator in your bathroom gets heat or did you only check the app? (In the app in this case you can’t see any heating sign) but the smart valve in your bathroom should be open to let the circulating hot water go thru the radiator, because temperature in not higher than the plan temp.
Werner
1. Zone1 R. 70:ee:50:24:17:6a (182) with Therm.(68) + 1 valve(61) in T-room + 2 rooms with 1 valve(61) each.
2. Zone2 R. 70:er:50:0b:2f:bc (182) with Therm.(68) and 2 valve(61) in T-room.

3. other house R. 70:ee:50:06:ec:42 (182) with Therm. (68)

HarryS
Posts: 5
Joined: 18 Oct 2017, 09:00

Re: Netatmo Smart Radiator Valves

Post by HarryS » 19 Oct 2017, 08:33

whnagel wrote:Harald,
Before you raised plan Temperature to 21.5 for the thermostat. ......
Did you check if the radiator in your bathroom gets heat or did you only check the app? (In the app in this case you can’t see any heating sign) but the smart valve in your bathroom should be open to let the circulating hot water go thru the radiator, because temperature in not higher than the plan temp.
Werner
Yes, I have been sitting in front of the radiator... The smart valve has been closed while circulation has been on (hot pipes, cold radiator) in the morning (around 8, one hour after the plan change). When I raised the thermostat temperature to 21.5 in the app, I could hear the smart valve motor sound and the radiator got hot. The heating icon went on for both devices in the app, but I agree that’s a visualization only.

Harald

tuxbox
Posts: 45
Joined: 07 Oct 2014, 08:45

Re: Netatmo Smart Radiator Valves

Post by tuxbox » 19 Oct 2017, 08:34

Fa_St wrote:
HarryS wrote:
whnagel wrote: So everytime you see an orange line on the graph of the valves the boiler have to switch on. Very simple!
Please beliefe me (i implemented this myself on my setup /FHEM to control my boiler on the state of my eq3/MAX valves) it is absolutly _NOT_ that simple! I'd preferre they do it right.

Turning on the boiler on a binary decision (any valve beneath set temperature) would result in an extremle bad/poor behaviour. I did that in first place and this is not what you want!

Every valve has kind of its on PID algorithm (needs to track how big/efficient its connected heater is) and starts to open a bit ahead and closes ahaead according to the tracked power its
heater gave on the last runs.
So when all rooms are near its set temperatures it would kind of permanently trigger boiler on for short and again off. You need something like a so called schmitt-trigger (different on/off trigger values) .. (or better two)
if one room/valve needs heat (opening state above some threshold) then turn on, but leave on until the openingstate is beneath lowerbound.
And the second trigger should check if all rooms together need a slight temp rise which a single valve would not trigger. So one trigger per valve and one per house (as all rooms get heat at once, all cool down again
toghether and in beginnig only slightly "ask" for heat again).

Fa_St
Posts: 60
Joined: 11 Jul 2017, 14:40

Re: Netatmo Smart Radiator Valves

Post by Fa_St » 19 Oct 2017, 09:46

tuxbox wrote: if one room/valve needs heat (opening state above some threshold) then turn on, but leave on until the openingstate is beneath lowerbound.
And the second trigger should check if all rooms together need a slight temp rise which a single valve would not trigger. So one trigger per valve and one per house (as all rooms get heat at once, all cool down again
toghether and in beginnig only slightly "ask" for heat again).
but is not every single valve, because the system assemble the valves in the same room as one.
Do you notice that the valves in the same room visualize the same temperature? the lower. So when one valve go down the set temperature is for all valves of the room.
And not all the thermostat are directly connected to the boiler for a immediate switching on/off.
Some thermostat control a zone valve that then switch on/off the boiler. So the response is not so fast.
So these strange attempts could be not so efficient.

So for the moment the easily solution is that all the rooms can switch on the boiler. When temperature go under the set point, if you observe the graph of the room, you can see a orange line but nothing happen now.

tuxbox
Posts: 45
Joined: 07 Oct 2014, 08:45

Re: Netatmo Smart Radiator Valves

Post by tuxbox » 19 Oct 2017, 10:03

Well, I am very very well aware of all those points you wrote, but seems I didn't describe
the problem well in those few sentences.
Of course all rooms should be able to switch on the boiler. The problem I described is somewhat
Different.
It's related to the matter like the smart thermostat also does not solely decide to heat just because
Of the actual temperature, but according to histeresis or extended PID.
And the valve have a somewhat similar "problem"/ treatment necessary.

HarryS
Posts: 5
Joined: 18 Oct 2017, 09:00

Re: Netatmo Smart Radiator Valves

Post by HarryS » 19 Oct 2017, 12:00

Back to the central heating vs. boiler control topic: I just discovered the bathroom valve are open today although the thermostat / relay has turned heating off (or closed the floor heating in my case). The problem is that the actual temperature is far above the scheduled temperature already. Actually it should be close. Reading about the relation between heating on/off and valves in https://forum.netatmo.com/viewtopic.php?f=73&t=9306 it looks like the value changes position only while heating is on. :-( This means it doesn't open if it is below plan temperature while heating is off (exactly what I have seen in my original post), and it doesn't close if the actual temperature is above while heating is off.

Reconsidering the whole situation, it looks like the system really needs to get more insights into the overall setup to address every situation. Tweaking individual triggers like the "valve should be allowed to turn on heating" is definitively a too narrow approach. I hope someone in Netatmo development is reading this and considering both the Thermostat / Smart Value relation as well as the different behavior required if the Thermostat / Relay controls a boiler directly, or if you have central heating and the Thermostat / Relay controls a floor heating augmented with radiators in other levels or rooms.

- Harald

Mariuss
Posts: 19
Joined: 24 Sep 2017, 21:17

Re: Netatmo Smart Radiator Valves

Post by Mariuss » 19 Oct 2017, 19:06

I noticed my thermostat and valves have newer firmware for a couple of days but I don’t see changes decribed in the thermostat firmware forum thread. Anybody knows what are the updates? My thermostat is now at FW61, valves are at FW 43 and my relay is at FW 152.
Thermostat firmware forum thread lists relay at FW 150 and thermostat at FW 59.
Btw. I’m not a beta tester...

Zephyrus
Posts: 6
Joined: 27 Sep 2017, 23:24

Re: Netatmo Smart Radiator Valves

Post by Zephyrus » 19 Oct 2017, 22:17

HarryS wrote:Back to the central heating vs. boiler control topic: I just discovered the bathroom valve are open today although the thermostat / relay has turned heating off (or closed the floor heating in my case). The problem is that the actual temperature is far above the scheduled temperature already. Actually it should be close. Reading about the relation between heating on/off and valves in https://forum.netatmo.com/viewtopic.php?f=73&t=9306 it looks like the value changes position only while heating is on. :-( This means it doesn't open if it is below plan temperature while heating is off (exactly what I have seen in my original post), and it doesn't close if the actual temperature is above while heating is off.

Reconsidering the whole situation, it looks like the system really needs to get more insights into the overall setup to address every situation. Tweaking individual triggers like the "valve should be allowed to turn on heating" is definitively a too narrow approach. I hope someone in Netatmo development is reading this and considering both the Thermostat / Smart Value relation as well as the different behavior required if the Thermostat / Relay controls a boiler directly, or if you have central heating and the Thermostat / Relay controls a floor heating augmented with radiators in other levels or rooms.

- Harald
I have the same scenario, underfloor heating menaged by netatmo thermostat and 2 radiators in my bathrooms where I attached the smart valves.
I put valves on a month ago and their behaviour was really random, somethimes not heating at all and other times raising the temperature 2 - 3 degrees more than desired, keeping hot water flowing for hours.

I am really loosing my patience, posted here few times and I like to hear some feedback from Netatmo for once, at least knowing that they are aware and working on our issues.

Fa_St
Posts: 60
Joined: 11 Jul 2017, 14:40

Re: Netatmo Smart Radiator Valves

Post by Fa_St » 19 Oct 2017, 22:48

News:
Now my firmware version is:
v157 (relay) / 63 (Thermostat) / 47 (valves)

If I go in mynetatmo page / home setup / "priority settings"
In the priority settings it this now possible to chose from 2 operation valves modes:
ECO priority : valve can't switch on the boiler
CONFORT priority: valve can turn the boiler ON

I have check if all work and:
- the good news is that the valve can switch ON the boiler
- the BAD news is that when the valves of one room switch on the boiler ALSO the valves of other rooms are open and start to heat even if not need

So STILL waiting for new FW version for fix this problem!

whnagel
Posts: 83
Joined: 24 Nov 2014, 14:00

Re: Netatmo Smart Radiator Valves

Post by whnagel » 19 Oct 2017, 23:04

I have still the old firmware
1. Zone1 R. 70:ee:50:24:17:6a (182) with Therm.(68) + 1 valve(61) in T-room + 2 rooms with 1 valve(61) each.
2. Zone2 R. 70:er:50:0b:2f:bc (182) with Therm.(68) and 2 valve(61) in T-room.

3. other house R. 70:ee:50:06:ec:42 (182) with Therm. (68)

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