Bug house with multiple floors environment

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galtieri
Posts: 1
Joined: 01 Mar 2023, 10:04

Bug house with multiple floors environment

Post by galtieri »

Hi guys, I'm going to start with a disclaimer: Ive previously tried to solve this issue by myself but with no solutions. I've already searched online for something helpful, so sorry if you already managed this topic - in that case feel free to link me to the correct resource 😉

My issue in short: I do not know how to manage big distances between heating valves and thermostat

My starting point is:
• I've bought an old house (70s), I do not want to re-buildthe hydraulic system. The as is situation is single boiler + single thermostat + radiators, no multi-zones heating, one single (big) zone, the entire house. The house is made of 4 floors. I will renew the boiler with a new condensing boiler. Boiler situated on the lowest floor (-1)

Naming convention:
-1 floor, means the lowest floor, boiler room, garage, etc | with 4 rooms
0 floor, means the living floor, with living room and kitchen | with 3 rooms
1 floor, means the bedrooms and bathrooms floor | with 5 rooms
2 floor, means the attic floor, with 2 rooms

The target situation:
Manage the temperature of every radiator or zones. I've tested lots of smart valves but the majority does not calls for heat. Netatmo (and Tado) are able to connect the valves to the thermostat and so call for heat, thanks to the existence of the so called Relay.

The issue:
I'd like to have one smart thermostat (Netatmo?) and all the radiators (below 20) equipped with the netatmo valves. The question is: how can I manage this big distances and make it work with one single relay? The relay I think will be placed near the boiler, so on the -1 floor. How is it possible that this relay can communicate to the farthest floor (2 floor)?

Is it something I am missing? Thanks a lot for you help and support. Have a great day everyone!
lurcio
Posts: 15
Joined: 25 Oct 2015, 21:49

Re: Bug house with multiple floors environment

Post by lurcio »

I don't know if you ever found a solution but I am posting a copy of a reply I just made on another similar thread.

"Did you use this in a system? I don't believe there is any logic between the radiator stats employed in the operation of the thermostat beyond the movement of different temperature air between zones. If this is the case and the zones are isolated(doors closed) it may be possible to have a cascade of calls for heat from each radiator stat in turn. I would like to know if this is actually the case, it would be a worst-case scenario and so may not be evident."

Hope it's of help.
barat
Posts: 27
Joined: 29 Sep 2021, 21:46

Re: Bug house with multiple floors environment

Post by barat »

The range is not perfect on that things since it's not Zigbee - it's Radio.
As silly as it sounds - there's no range extender neither.
What I do is that I connected two Relays to the boiler (therefore I have 2 Thermostats also). You can have one on -1, and ont on 2nd floor and it should cover everything. Eventually put just one on 0 floor and check if it'll work. For one of the relays I use 10m long cable - works no problem.
lurcio
Posts: 15
Joined: 25 Oct 2015, 21:49

Re: Bug house with multiple floors environment

Post by lurcio »

Do the two thermostats control zone valves for their relative areas(floors) or are you just using them in parallel to call for heat from two different areas and heat the entire system?
barat
Posts: 27
Joined: 29 Sep 2021, 21:46

Re: Bug house with multiple floors environment

Post by barat »

They control separate "Houses" like Netatmo calls them. I have two "houses" - "ground floor" and "Up". It's easy to switch between those in the app
lurcio
Posts: 15
Joined: 25 Oct 2015, 21:49

Re: Bug house with multiple floors environment

Post by lurcio »

When the ground floor start calls for heat doet it heat the whole system or only the rads on the lower 2 floors.

Way before smart stats I had 3 floors with a start on the ground floor with a valve for that floor and a start and valve on the 1st Floor to control the rads on the upper 2 floors but it was never successful.
barat
Posts: 27
Joined: 29 Sep 2021, 21:46

Re: Bug house with multiple floors environment

Post by barat »

Water flows only through those radiators which have open valves. It's not the floor is calling for the heat - the individual valves does it. Boiler starts, and water flows through all the radiators with "open" valves.
lurcio
Posts: 15
Joined: 25 Oct 2015, 21:49

Re: Bug house with multiple floors environment

Post by lurcio »

Don't get me wrong, I am not criticising your installation but I see that as the major problem, there is no logic between the various valves and thermostats. If all or most radiators on a system are controlled by TRVs and they can call for heat, by the system's nature it will only be one that falls below the required temperature to initiate that call. This could initiate a boiler ignition and the flow of hot water through the whole system just to pass through that valve and raise the temperature of that radiator until the call for heat is met.

I understand at some points other valves may open and use that heat but it could equally be that this only happens some time after and so will initiate another call for heat. This process could be rolling throughout the daily programme and if the areas are isolated(doors shut) there will be minimal leakage of that heat meaning this scenario is more likely. Now I have no idea if that is a better system or not. On the system I tried using entire floors with a zone valve and thermostat it most definitely was not and caused an increase in energy usage with no increase in comfort whatsoever. My system had only 2 zones and 2 thermostats, effectively turning it into a 2 room house with a radiator and TRV in each but as I said, this was way before smart thermostats.

Another factor is, that in highly insulated buildings maintaining the temperature up to the boundary of the insulation, as long as it isn't a wing of a vast mansion that is unused, will be minimal compared to trying to run that temperature differential through thin, uninsulated internal walls.

I currently run Home Assistant in the house for lots of other functions and it would be possible to monitor each room's temperature and if the TRV in one called for heat the remaining room's temperatures could be checked and if they were close to the temperature where the TRV would call for heat the TRV settings could be altered enabling it to open and use the current heat cycle. This would indeed be a shared logic between the various parts of the system. I would not implement this because of its cost, complexity and I don't think it would improve comfort and reduce costs but I have expended a good deal of time balancing my system.

So, am I missing something and is there some logic between the valves that would improve my system.
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